This is a lengthy discussion I had on a forum concerning the authority of the Bible. I may add more later, but he hasn't responded in a couple of days. I don't know if I covered all bases, or did everything as best as I could, so critique it if you have to, but keep in mind that it's just a discussion, and shouldn't be considered more than that.

Bradford

"are we authorized to have praise teams? i haven't found a verse in the bible that does!"

This is the biggest error of our current times. The error of treating the Bible like its the absolute step-by-step manual about the Church... and treating it like God dropped it out of the sky.

Me

God didn't drop it out of the sky, but it came directly from God, through the Holy Spirit, by way of selected apostles.

2 Peter 1:21-22 - "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

I personallly don't think that Praise Teams is a Heaven or Hell issue, but to say that the Bible is not directly from God is completely wrong. If we don't follow the Bible, then we would be just like the denominations out there who aren't following it. The Bible isn't just a guideline, it's all that we have that is true in the world today.

Bradford

"God didn't drop it out of the sky, but it came directly from God, through the Holy Spirit, by way of selected apostles."

That is a completely unfounded statement.

This sounds like you are saying the Bible is an infallible document!?

The Bible may have been written by "inspired" men, but it is a big error to say that it came directly from God to the exact words on the page.

Maybe you should explain, how scripture came to be... in the best step-by-step manner you can. I'm interested...?

Me

Did you not read the verse I put?

2 Peter 1:21-22 - "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

The only way that God talks to us today is through the holy scriptures he has given us through the bible. You can't go by what you think is right, because our mind is not the mind of God

Isaiah 55:8-9 - "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

The only thing about the Bible that is infallable is from translation. There is a lot of things lost when translating, and especially when paraphrasing a translation.

The restoration movement was all about returning to the Bible, to the pattern given to us in the beginning, and that's all that we know to be true in the mind of God. I've never understood how anyone can follow their own personal feelings, and risk losing their soul for all eternity. I can understand people being led by false leaders. But those that know the truth, and do not do it, that I cannot understand.

James 1:22-25 - "Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does."

James 4:17 - "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."

Bradford

2 Peter 1:21-22 - "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Some basic facts:

... Peter was speaking of the Old Testament (which, for Christians was the Septuagint.)

Paul did not sit down and say, "I'm going to write this letter to the Corinthians and it shall be scripture." Rather, the Church decided that these letters of his should be included in a New Testament.

Only 3 of Christ's first hand Apostles wrote anything.

The Church existed without a canonized Bible for about 3 centuries (longer than the U.S.A. has even existed).

There are what appears to be contradictions in the Bible (which doesn't affect my Faith at all). One example is the theives crucified along with Christ. One gospel says 1 blessed Christ, 1 cursed Christ... the other two say both cursed. That's just one example, but there are others. But this shouldn't have any affect on one's Faith.

Thoughts?

Me

If all 4 gospels were alike in every single detail, it would be less believable. Any account of history is more believable if there are multiple accounts that have a few details that are different. It just proves the fact that more than one person actually witnessed the event. Different people see things differently. The account of the crucifixion took over 6 hours of time. So it's completely possible that at one point, both theives were cursing Him, and then later on, one of them realized that he was the Christ (which the account in John tells us of).

The church had the apostles to teach them, and word of mouth after that. Those that wrote may not have thought that what they were writing would eventually become Scripture, but what they wrote was truth. What they wrote was from the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is all that we have to know what is truth. I wish, for the sake of those who don't follow the Word of God, that the Bible could be just a guideline. But for me, it's the law, it's all that God has given us to know right from wrong in this life.

Bradford

I have to humbly disagree with the statement that the Bible is all we have.

I believe we have the Church, and that the gates of Hades have never prevailed against it, and that Christ promised to always be with us, and that it stands as the "pillar and ground of truth" just as the Bible itself tells us. I do not believe that Christ allowed it to go astray.

Me

If the church could not be lead astray, the crusades would not have happened, Mary I would not have beheaded non-catholic Christians and put them on posts, and we wouldn't have all of these denominations. There is one church; Christ's prayer was for the church to be one, and how can we be one if we do not have something to unite on. [I'm not saying that all churches are right, but I was arguing the point that the church can go astray]

I wasn't saying that the Bible was the only thing we have overall; we do have the Church, but the Bible is our only foundation for beliefs. It's the only direct source from God today. We have to continually test those that teach, and how can we do that if we don't have any way to know what is right?

1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Christ gave the first apostles and Paul the duty to establish the Church. These verses are spoken by Christ:

Matthew 28:18-19 "'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...'"

Acts 9:15 "'...[Paul] is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles...'"

Bradford

If you research, you'll find that the "Roman Catholic" church, split away from all of the other original churches that you find in the Bible (i.e. Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, Thesselonika, Crete, Smyrna, Alexandria, etc.). This happened during the "Great Schism" which is given the date of 1054.

When I reference the Church, this is the "Church" that I refer to. They had nothing to do with the Crusades. They suffered during the Crusades, especially when Constantinople was sacked by the Crusaders. The Church has never suffered a "Protestant Reformation" or "Counter-Reformation" or "Restoration." It has simply existed in the East as it always has.

Me

You say that a church cannot be led astray, because Christ would not let it do so, but then you say that a "church" that claims Christ, whether it be catholic or protestant, is no longer the church. How can you say that the church cannot be led astray, and then say that a group that considers themselves the church are no longer the church??

The way I understood what you said before was that anyone who claimed Christ as their savior would be saved.

Oh, a good friend sent me a message saying that the theives on the cross may have both cursed him at one point, and then one of them had a change of heart later on. The scene on the cross was a 6 hour period, so, to me, that is not a contridiction in the Bible.